Criminal Roleplay / Law Enforcement Roleplay Discussion [2020/11/28 6pm ET]

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William Hayes

The Man Himself
Management
AG's Office
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Oct 10, 2019
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Hello all,

We are looking to organize a Teamspeak discussion event with Criminals and Law Enforcement (and others who are interested in sitting in; the session will be open to everybody). This will be an opportunity for people to bring up topics that are important to them in regards to the state of Criminal / Law Enforcement RP. This event will be moderated by Staff and should serve as a good avenue for constructive discussion that will help both sides understand each other better, and find a good middle ground for all.

This event will take place on Teamspeak at 6pm Eastern Time on Saturday November 28th and will be recorded.

There is no room for toxicity of any kind during this event, and everyone shall remain respectful of one another. If you are interested and have a topic you would like discussed, please provide some information below in this thread and you will be called upon at the meeting to speak.

Some pre-planned topics:

  • Consequences of character actions for both LEO and Criminals
  • Overuse of heavy weaponry (Shotguns)
  • Escalation into gunfights
  • Hostile RP pacing
  • Criminal punishment (Options/Reforms)

Any questions about this event please open a #support ticket on Discord.

Thank you,

Hayes
 

Denzel Freeman

Cowboy
Whitelisted
Mar 19, 2020
40
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This is Kezieeve and I play Denzel Freeman. I would love to be there for the discussion to speak on consequences actions as well as shotguns use.
I stand on the part of that sawoff shotguns are illegal and LEO should arrest on it. As for no shotgun use might as well take away Bolt action if that be the case. I think it doesnt matter but I can make my point better if Im allowed to come. Hope I did this right.
 

William Hayes

The Man Himself
Management
AG's Office
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First Settler
Oct 10, 2019
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This is Kezieeve and I play Denzel Freeman. I would love to be there for the discussion to speak on consequences actions as well as shotguns use.
I stand on the part of that sawoff shotguns are illegal and LEO should arrest on it. As for no shotgun use might as well take away Bolt action if that be the case. I think it doesnt matter but I can make my point better if Im allowed to come. Hope I did this right.
Sure, those topics can be talked about but some (i.e. legality) is better served on an IC basis. But shotguns are a topic I plan on addressing and would love to hear feedback on them during the meeting
 
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Hank Heyworth

Gunslinger
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Mar 1, 2020
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Somebody needs to remind me of this, because i need to be there!
Just in case i forget about it, i'll make this one detailed.

Hello i am Hank Heyworth, or the OG Crim. Hank has always been on the forefront of being slightly Shady so i have a lot of experience here.
If i am allowed to speak i will talk about the RP side of things;
Deputies Role as seen from a criminals perspective
Deputies What needs to change;

-Payed too much
-Discouraged from RP
-encouraged to do realism from the wrong century
-Mechanics before RP ("i don't have 64 gallons of contraband in my pockets" "yes you do i can see it")
-Too much power, too little fun.
-Discouraged from thinking for themselves
-Discouraged from creating RP with non-law

Basically i want to talk about how we are all here to have fun, and if the deputies ain't having fun, there is no way an interaction with them is going to be good. We gotta change the screaming deputies into actually talking deputies that want an interaction other than "i can't let these guys win" kinda people.
Sheriff's and deputies weren't payed enough to care about bystanders possibly getting hurt in crossfire.
Sheriff's and deputies weren't payed enough to turn a good bribe down
Sheriff's and deputies weren't payed enough to not want to create a better living for themselves
I mean people who go into law enforcement in real life today, they have a skewed view of what justice is. do you really think it was better back in the day? I hear deputies are OOC discouraged from being "dirty" This should be an IC Discouragement, not an OOC Discouragement.
Deputies especially were dirty as dang, because they could, Sheriffs too, it was pretty common that sheriffs from one county had to come into another one to take out the Sheriff because he was fucking up. Basically, we need to encourage RP for everybody, get back to the days, where RP was more important than the mechanics.

One solution is to pay the deputies Way less, Less money than you can make in a day as a hunter.

Sheriffs Had a base salary of 200 dollars, and were payed slightly more for every arrest, or fine issued, also a big part of their work was to collect taxes for the government. 200 dollars a year. Historical records show that, that was about the same pay a fur trapper would get, aka a guy that ran around kicking rats all day, got payed the same as a Sheriff (not deputy)
When Deputies are payed the same as everybody else, and they Have to rely on the people they protect to stay safe themselves. Bribes, and alternate ways of making money, all of a sudden seems more attractive.

Don't make being a deputy attractive OOC or IC make deputy a job that is available if it suits your character. Being a deputy or sheriff shouldn't be a perk, it should be exactly the same as if you were a fur trapper, it should be good ass RP.

------
Court system needs to be removed, it doesn't work, it has never worked on an RP server and it never will, the only thing a court system has ever added is the feeling that you are guilty until proven innocent. The feeling that deputies have way more power than they should have and really a lack of lust for interraction with the law. meaning it's way easier to just open fire on somebody who will put you away, instead of trying to settle it with words which would create more and better RP

Small claims court for sure, stuff that can be handled if there is a judge available that moment. but anything to do with normal crime (bank robberies, store robberies, Moonshine, violence) should be handled on the spot, no evidence ready right now? well you can't take me in then, because the whole town will turn on you and you will lose your job. The sentence "you can take it to court" needs to be gone when it comes to deputies actually arresting you, this would also validate people that want to play real lawyers that can actually do something, seeing as the lawyers are currently in the same position where they have to wait until the court date before they a can try to save their clients. Nobody wants to do that, cut out the middle man, fuck court and lets RP. We need lawyers to have the ability to walk into a law office and say, "fuck off with that, you have no evidence, release my client right now"

And more. i have literally pages upon pages of this shit, cut it down a lot to fit in here.
 

Ryker Wheeler

Cowpoke
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May 5, 2020
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I couldn't possibly agree anymore with the above. The division between white hat/black hat shouldnt be so cut and dry. There definitely needs to be more opportunity for people to straddle the line. As a person RP'ing a business owner character, I should easily be able to put an entire towns law enforcement on my payroll, but I know going into it if I try to bribe a deputy I'm likely to lose my licenses on the spot and be thrown in jail or attract far too much attention to myself thats just not worth it. Deputies, politicians, judges - all of these people should be susceptible to some form of bribery because those jobs existed in that time as public service and were not high paying. Not to mention the things Hank listed give opportunity for some of the best RP scenarios around.
 
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Ulysses Murray

Gunslinger
Department of Justice
Whitelisted
May 12, 2020
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I disagree with the two posts above completely. hopefully we get a good discussion going on on the subject from all points of view. more people on the discussion would be great. I feel the court does a good job and is fun rp for the people that do it. removing them completely is taking peoples rp away which I'm completely against.

When it comes to pay scales for deputies i find it irrelevant to the discussion as i can spend a couple of hours and make lots of money too. They also give out money quite often and have several animal bounties on a lot as my alts always take them up on it as it brings better rp than selling to a butcher.

I feel that no matter what the deputies people are always unhappy with them. They work really hard to do the best they can

Sheriff's and deputies weren't payed enough to care about bystanders possibly getting hurt in crossfire.
Sheriff's and deputies weren't payed enough to turn a good bribe down
Sheriff's and deputies weren't payed enough to not want to create a better living for themselves

With the three sentences above I feel that morals would come down to it. Not everything is about money. If someone wants to bribe a an official try it get creative with it. Build the rapport with the person you want to bribe over time the rp opportunities with that are fantastic if done correctly.

When it comes to them caring if people get hurt in crossfire. I don't understand why someone being paid would come down to caring if someone got hurt or potentially killed. That's just my view on it.

When it comes to wanting a better life for anyone. Everyone wants to have a better life for themselves I feel thats human nature.

At the end of it I'm looking forward to see all points of view. We are one big family at the end of the day love you all crims you guys are amazing, all players of the law you are great. To the members of the court you guys rock. Lastly to everyone else keep up the good rp <3
 

Ryker Wheeler

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I shouldve been more careful to say I agree with everything mentioned by Hank, with regards to the court, Court RP is awesome. My characters hired an attorney with the hopes he shouldnt have to actually NEED his services haha. Either way you are right about the big family and I cant wait for the actual discussion because I know the entire server is going to be for the better by the open discourse.
 
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Molly Ray

Marshal Marshall
Staff
Sheriff's Office West
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Nov 12, 2019
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-Payed too much
-Discouraged from RP
-encouraged to do realism from the wrong century
-Mechanics before RP ("i don't have 64 gallons of contraband in my pockets" "yes you do i can see it")
-Too much power, too little fun.
-Discouraged from thinking for themselves
-Discouraged from creating RP with non-law

Not to spoil the meeting, but I can happily say something about this stuff on behalf of myself.

-Payed too much

- We are literally paid less than any other job when you break it down. The main reason that "Deputies have so much money" is a two-fold issue: one we put in a lot of hours on the clock. A lot of us 12 at a time. While we're on the clock, there's very little we buy. Some of us just "donate" money and items to players. During the plague, I took almost $1500 of Molly's money and gave it away to those too sick to go out and "work". There aren't a lot of money sinks in the game for us to actually sink away that money. So once we have what we "want to buy" there are very few things we tend to buy outside of provisions.

-Discouraged from RP


- far from the truth. We RP generally the entire time we are on duty and off, just because we don't always suspend our beliefs of what someone else would prefer us too, doesn't mean for a second that we are discouraged from RP.

-encouraged to do realism from the wrong century,

- Again, not true at all. Since we do not do AOP, What I find the most humorous about this argument is that we MAY end up going into the next century in less than two months, and then what will everyone use as an excuse? May I remind everyone that the opening Scene of RDR2 "By 1899 the age of outlaws and gunslingers was at the end. America was becoming a land of laws...even the West had mostly been tamed. A few gangs still roamed, but they were being hunted down and destroyed." This sets up pretty much what has been done with LEO on the server. We are ONE department that has jurisdictions. There are minor things that we have added to the full department, like Detectives, but again those were seen in IRL cities such as Boston and Chicago dating back to 1856 to internally investigate the departments in which their units were set up.

-Mechanics before RP ("i don't have 64 gallons of contraband in my pockets" "yes you do I can see it")


- This can easily be turned back around and asked why aren't you using other players to share that load? Why must you hold that much just because YOU as a player can? What will happen when we do get storage? Are people REALLY gonna want us to get Search Warrants? I can promise in this whole "century" that people want us to play in, there was no "official" paperwork there. We would take everything would find and destroy the place that it is held, usually by burning it down. Should we have that power? Idk, maybe, seems a little OP, but so does holding 64 jugs of Moonshine because you can.

-Too much power, too little fun.

- We lose all the time. We are trained to do so. The expectation is to do so. We literally have little power, I can promise that IF we had more power people wouldn't like it. We are a mechanic first. We are the gatekeeper of crime. Without us, you are depending on a population to provide that for you and while that seems fun, that population isn't trained to lose, they aren't trained to use their voice above everything. They aren't trained to RP first.

-Discouraged from thinking for themselves

-
Not a single LEO is told HOW they must think. We have so many rules as it's a SECONDARY whitelist. IT'S A PRIVILEGE to be an LEO, not a right.

-Discouraged from creating RP with non-law

- again not true. Many characters have many storylines outside of LEO. My character adopted a "reformed" criminal. One of the pioneers of crime on the server. Not once did a single "person in charge" come to me and say, "uhhh no you AREN'T doing that". Not once did they say, "You probably shouldn't do that." There's this misconception that you cannot be corrupt. No, you can, you have to decide if it's worth your BADGE if you get caught. Some positions if you get caught it's a PK, you agree to it by taking that position and it's not JUST LEO that has to agree to it, several positions on the server do. Which, also let me express WHY LEO tend to not take this path of corruption because it's not as EASY to just re-roll an LEO. It's not like criminals, where you go to the creator make a new character and rejoin or join a gang. You make the character, get them established, fill out an application again, take an interview again, Recruit again, take your evaluation again, and then start from the bottom again. Some people enjoy their storyline so much and their history so much, it's ALOT to just end. So if you're going to do "bad things or be a bad deputy" you have to keep that VERY secret and CHOOSE your "bad" allies very very carefully. I can't think of a single criminal that I would trust in the server that's worth Molly's career.
 

Eden Meredith

Gunslinger
Sheriff's Office East
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Oct 15, 2020
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To go along with Molly's points, I don't want to spoil the discussion before we get there, but as a relatively new LEO, all I can tell you, is becoming a LEO has given me 1000000% more perspective on what they do day in and day out. When I clock in, I could do back to back to back robberies with 0 chance to recover, I could get kidnapped for 4 hours, I could get shot up repeatedly.

I always play both sides in any game that has an 'asymmetric' side to it, it gives me a lot of perspective, and I would suggest that you consider the same idea, because in this case, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

As a Side note: The pay literally means nothing outside of RP, because eventually the character 'buys' everything they might need, and then we get to use that money to fuel RP, pay people for killing wolves, cougars, bears. Pay the doctor that patches you or ourselves up, and give back to the community that we love so much.
 

James Tully

The Bosun
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Feb 10, 2020
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Court system needs to be removed, it doesn't work, it has never worked on an RP server and it never will, the only thing a court system has ever added is the feeling that you are guilty until proven innocent. The feeling that deputies have way more power than they should have and really a lack of lust for interraction with the law. meaning it's way easier to just open fire on somebody who will put you away, instead of trying to settle it with words which would create more and better RP

Interesting point here Mr Heyworth. However, let me present some of my perspective. In my interactions as Judge with you and others around you I have found nothing but great RP and the opportunity for so many paths a story could take purely because of the court RP. Many of those stories have made an impact on the story of my character as well as those around me too, both positive and negative. I would never change that nor would I wish it away.

Since the day I started with the Judiciary I will agree there has been some ups-and-downs. This is the nature of a fluid system that is designed for balancing roleplay. Not everyone will have the same experience every time they interact with it. It all comes down to how the story is told, just like any roleplay. and lets face it, if criminals won every time, nobody would want to come play for long. There has to be balance, just like the scales of justice. (had to put that in there).

There has been so many great storylines that could only have come from legal and court RP. Our legislators and the Governors react to some of those stories. Legends have been built by the public notice of trials and hearings. Today, we have a system to get criminal records eliminated, businesses licensing, marriages, adoptions, obituaries, etc. All through the court system to ensure the stories can be told and recorded.

I cant speak for those in-charge now but I can say that they are great leaders with an open ear. They value opinions and ideas to maximizing the opportunities for anyone to tell THEIR story. Let's not criticize over a few bad experiences, let's reach for a balance. Explain what you think needs some tweaking and maybe some ways to do that. Law Enforcement and Judiciary are there for that balance. Help them with ways to grow not to tear them down. We'll all gain better experiences for it.
 

Ruby Colt

Gunslinger
Whitelisted
Jun 29, 2020
57
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I disagree with the two posts above completely. hopefully we get a good discussion going on on the subject from all points of view. more people on the discussion would be great. I feel the court does a good job and is fun rp for the people that do it. removing them completely is taking peoples rp away which I'm completely against.
I'll save most of it for discussion, but as of now, court RP punishes the criminal more than it would if they just plead guilty. I'm excited to bring this up as a topic,

Along with things that deputies and criminals could work on in terms of evidence .Leaving notes as clues, etc
 

Hank Heyworth

Gunslinger
Whitelisted
Mar 1, 2020
59
102
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with the court system it's mostly the fact that you can either be guilty and go to jail or you can be not guilty and go to jail for longer. that is the main problem.
Also, to molly; 64 jugs of shine on you is literally the only way to do it if you want to run a bar and not just farm money mechanics. The reason this is a problem is because those jugs exist in RP and they exist quite naturally down in the bar where Hank placed them. nobody can carry 64 gallons of anything in their pants.
just wanted to clarify. RP first =)
 

Zurgadai "Jim" Baghatur

Cowboy
Sheriff's Office East
Whitelisted
May 4, 2020
25
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The Open Steppe
www.twitch.tv
Naturally, I am interested in this.

First points I would be interested in the discussion come the day is:
I press have been well known, reform for criminal punishment. Hell, I am the one who got the thread with the huge support to push for Perms from judges on folks who commit first degree murder. Or at the least perm town banishments.
IC and OOC been campaigning to fix the times for crimes. Even gun reform, such as a deadly force law to max/increase time for Shotgun use in a crime.

Secondly:
Naturally, LEO burn out is something I've witnessed time and time again, and honestly felt myself.

Third:
I also agree and point out, there is WAY too modern of an outlook/expectation on LEO from LEOC, staff, the public, and even crims. I've made the joke, but can provide strong historic and modern evidence that LEO's are held to a standard higher than we currently hold our real life LEO at times. I will agree with above stated, LEO in the day was VERY corrupt and got away with a lot of horrid things. Am I saying we go to the extremes we saw LEO do back then? No, not at all. But even back then folks understood the Sherriff was going to uphold the law, but also his self interests, along with the deputies. Often they were thugs/brute force for politicians and the crime they orientated themselves around combating is what the politician cared about. But I feel I am getting off topic. The point being, folks often get into a situation with LEO and even expect the professionalism and legal rights (Such as being read your rights) from LEO that would be on par with 2020, not 1899. As of late, LEO RP expectation is very Pidgeon holed, it is why I even had to step back from it.

I hope to make it! I should be able to make it, if I cannot, here are the points of my interest and the direction/view points I would be advocating for/against with the quick summaries of my beliefs, naturally I have much more to say on all of these.
 

Isaac Haynes

Gunslinger
Sheriff's Office West
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Gold Supporter
Apr 16, 2020
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Some pre-planned topics:
  • Consequences of character actions for both LEO and Criminals
  • Overuse of heavy weaponry (Shotguns)
  • Escalation into gunfights
  • Hostile RP pacing
  • Criminal punishment (Options/Reforms)

I believe these are good over-arching topics to discuss during this event. I would add the Justice Dept. if possible to be included in title and discussion since Court RP is a facet LEO do try to encourage, include, and utilize. Some additional suggestions for topics/reinforcement would be:

- The atmosphere that criminals feel they are being forced to perma if going to trial

- The mentality of "mega groups" and constant "we have more so you need to give in or its auto NVL" (This is both to crims and LEO)

- The "one-tap" approach to gunfights (This is both to crims and LEO)

- Prison breaks (The proper way to initiate this and the knowledge of consequences for this action)

There are some topics I feel should also be addressed but primarily handled IC and involving the elected govt

- Fines in general (felonies/misdemeanors)

- Town Ordinances

- Direct violent crimes to LEO

I understand people have opinions on the topics I am suggesting but reserve personal opinion for the meeting as a organized vocal discussion can lead to better understanding on both sides since textual words can easily be misunderstood.
 

Frank Hamer

Gunslinger
Sheriff's Office West
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Gold Supporter
May 22, 2020
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@Hank Heyworth

Hey Skoog, some of the elements you mention are incorrect -- perhaps reasonable guesses based on things you have seen or heard in-game - but are simply wrong.

I'd like for you to have a solid basis of understanding for any suggestions you might want to proffer during the meeting.

DM me when it is convenient for you, and I'm happy to discuss it with you brother.

Just An0maly (Detective Frank Hamer)
 
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Fly Wilson

Cowpoke
Sheriff's Office Recruit
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Mar 24, 2020
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Land of Oz
Heyo, it might already get touched on with some of the other topics but I'd really like to talk about the overuse of plea deals to the point they've almost become unrealistic and OP
 
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