Perming a Character

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Miguel Sanchez

Cowboy
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My feeling is that we should never feel pressured to do anything in RP that we are not 100% comfortable with - that includes perma or torture scenes, heck even perma'ing a horse or pet you own just because someone shot it - this sort of stuff is why we have /OOC or the ability to reach out via DMs. I've had situations where if things had gone differently I would have considered perma for several of my characters that I've played so far on the server. Miguel could have perma'd a couple of times, Cliff could have perma'd once and I was VERY close to doing so but the person who shot him actually talked to me OOC and said they would prefer he survived as it would bring more RP and potential consequences that may also be what they were wanting in order to perma their own character or change their own character's arc etc.

We mustn't feel pressured to perma our character if we do not feel ready to but at the same time we also should consider some of the other aspects of our character's behaviour and what genuine repercussions those situations would invite and at what point it becomes disingenuous to continue playing that character without either a break or considering perma. Obviously if you cross people who are violent criminals or you continually provoke and posture, at some point you will likely end up in a situation where you may get incapped and a perma might be an option. It's up to us to choose whether we perma but there are other options to perma as have been mentioned previously in the thread (such as life in prison if you're a career criminal and never shown remorse or rehabilitation for your past crimes, taking an extended break with that character in a "coma" or something similar) to take your character out of the limelight for the moment.

With most of my characters I have a basic storyline or arc that I think would be nice to accomplish with that character before they get to a perma'ble state (e.g. when I would then seriously consider the next RPed incapacitation as the cause of death) - but I will also consider it closely if the situation or RP has been so good that it would feel right to perma at that point. I know this is the same for many of us on the server, if not all, but sometimes there are characters that have run their course who either need to be put on hiatus or perma'd. I will say that I have had some people I know who do not play on the server previously speak to me that I know from my days in ArmA 2/3 and DayZ RP servers who have said WWRP is like a land of "immortals" and in certain cases on this server I would agree that there are characters who realistically would have been killed off by now, but again this is not mine, nor my friend's decision on when / if someone should perma.

The key thing for us to remember is that it is never for us to decide when someone else permas, that is their decision, even if we may disagree with the idea that they have not perma'd the character where we thought they perhaps should have. By the same token though it should still be considered carefully when a scenario makes sense - as in your gang for example has been warring with another gang for some time and there's a shootout or some kind of showdown and you get incapacitated. Does it make sense at that moment to perma? Has your character served their purpose or could they serve more purpose by continuing to live on? Either way the RP needs to make sense - and the RP should always be the focus, not whether you get your "win" or "loss" (in the form of a perma on someone else's character or conversely when your character permas).

I agree with the sentiments raised before where people have stated that you should not continually go after someone if they have not perma'd to you or your group - that's FailRP and horrendously cringeworthy and smacks of a "win mentality". Get that shit out of your head and think about the storyline and what makes sense, regardless of who is on the "winning" side. I've played on a LOT of RP servers, from ArmA 2/3, DayZ, GTA V, RDR2 etc etc and there have been people I've thought "Hmmm that character really seems stale / old now and would probably be better to perma" but I would never try and force that situation upon them, certainly not more than once or by continually pursuing them. Situations like that are what cause OOC toxicity between groups / people because it's constant OOC warring trying to get each other to perma etc. We're all adults in this community and we should know when to consider perma and when not to. I admit our main characters are often characters or entities that we become very fond of but at the forefront of your mind should ALWAYS be story - if it makes sense to perma and you are comfortable with it, then do it - if not then don't! Simple.
 

Vincent Vincenzo

Traveler
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Jan 13, 2021
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I do not have as much to add to this as some of the other posters have added, other than I agree that perming a character can be a great way to continue a story past their own life in an enriching and serious way. That being said, I do agree that perming a main character is not something to be taken lightly, and the choice should be ultimately up to the creator of the character and no one else.
 

Conrad Furtaw

Cowpoke
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Nov 29, 2020
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You may have quite the sample size, but I encourage people to always be open to Permadeath, especially on their main characters. Nothing sucks the fun out of conflict more than beef that continuously goes back and forth over and over and never has any real consequences.

Conflict is the meat and potatoes of any story RP or otherwise, whether its group vs group, person vs person, or internal conflict with ones own group or even oneself. The thing that makes these so captivating is the consequences. Sometimes that isn't death obviously, it could be relationships being destroyed or major financial loss etc, but when the conflict and the tone is right I think permadeath is very reasonable to be considered.

Stories end, and I think RP would be a lot better off if most people embraced that. I'm not suggesting for any reason to take permadeath lightly, but consider it for fatal encounters.

I say this out of experience, if two groups go to war with each other, and only one side considers permadeath, it just makes everyone sour when the other isn't following suit. That undoubtedly makes up a small percentage of the regret some folks feel, because they perma'd to someone who wouldn't perma for them, let's say.

Sometimes stories end unremarkably as well, knew a player who died to a log, just randomly. It was super sad for his friends and family, and it was untimely, but that's life sometimes.

Nobody knows when death comes, I think ideally you ought to be open to permadeath especially in scenarios where you aren't planning it. If you end up missing the character and the story, then that's just a testament to you and your roleplay. I really despise RP snobs most of the time, but if I may be snobby on any topic it might be this one, where I'd stick my neck out and assert that being open to permadeath regardless of your main or alt, is better quality roleplay and consideration for 'impact' in stories, not even necessarily your own story.
 

Nahele Nawig

Gunslinger
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Apr 13, 2020
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Nice to make one lifers and fill up the obituary page as they get killed. They may survive some "incapacitations" but they will die eventually.

But yeah, never give in to pressure to mutilate or perma your main character. People can be jerks and want you to do it for their own advancements, not a cool way to RP. You can always go "serve a long sentence in jail" or "move to another state" etc...instead.
 

Eva Sur

Gunslinger
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May 5, 2020
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While I do think it is the players choice to perma and you shouldn't be pressured to make such a huge decision, I also think it is important to still rp out consequences. When others take consequences seriously and the other side doesn't, it can feel unbalanced, frustrating, and not genuine, esp when the other side is just a crazy criminal or serial killer who keeps doing stuff over and over to other people too. If you are playing a bad guy, you are forcing other people to have consequences and should accept that your life/reign is going to be short in the wild west.

Consequences don't have to be perma either to feel like there's arc to a story either. It can be a coma, long jail sentence, some sort of drastic character arc where your character changes, but it can feel very discouraging to be fucked on by someone and take consequences in order to further their rp and not have the same respect given the other way around. Taking consequences is a lot of the time about furthering other's story and giving their actions the weight they deserve.

Playing a bad guy (because a lot of the time youre forcing others to be a part of your rp) should be focused on giving others rp and respect should be a priority. It shouldn't be about winning or make the other side feel as if that's all you want out of their reaction, and a good way to do that is to give your character consequences.
 

Saffron Mitchell

Gunslinger
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Jul 2, 2020
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While I do think it is the players choice to perma and you shouldn't be pressured to make such a huge decision, I also think it is important to still rp out consequences. When others take consequences seriously and the other side doesn't, it can feel unbalanced, frustrating, and not genuine, esp when the other side is just a crazy criminal or serial killer who keeps doing stuff over and over to other people too. If you are playing a bad guy, you are forcing other people to have consequences and should accept that your life/reign is going to be short in the wild west.

Consequences don't have to be perma either to feel like there's arc to a story either. It can be a coma, long jail sentence, some sort of drastic character arc where your character changes, but it can feel very discouraging to be fucked on by someone and take consequences in order to further their rp and not have the same respect given the other way around. Taking consequences is a lot of the time about furthering other's story and giving their actions the weight they deserve.

Playing a bad guy (because a lot of the time youre forcing others to be a part of your rp) should be focused on giving others rp and respect should be a priority. It shouldn't be about winning or make the other side feel as if that's all you want out of their reaction, and a good way to do that is to give your character consequences.
Very well said.

Point blank, if you're willing to ICly deliberately end other's stories, you should be willing to see your own come to an end (1st degree murder stuff and consequences); otherwise the end result is disingenuous and power gamey.
 

Molly Oak

Typhoid Molly 𝙸̶𝙸̶𝙸̶𝙸̶𝙸̶
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Apr 19, 2020
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Yes but YOU aren't the one ending others' stories. They are. You may have fired the shot but (hopefully) you aren't the one dictating that the story has ended. They are. So while yes, there are IC consequences for such things, it shouldn't be on the other player and nobody has the right to say things like 'well you ended this character so you have to end too'. That's not fair and THAT is powergamey.

Also I don't like the statement that being a bad guy is 'forcing' others to be part of your RP. If that's how someone feels about it they shouldn't be RPing. And if someone truly doesn't want to be part of something they have every right to find a way to bow out.
 

Saffron Mitchell

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Yes but YOU aren't the one ending others' stories. They are. You may have fired the shot but (hopefully) you aren't the one dictating that the story has ended. They are. So while yes, there are IC consequences for such things, it shouldn't be on the other player and nobody has the right to say things like 'well you ended this character so you have to end too'. That's not fair and THAT is powergamey.

Also I don't like the statement that being a bad guy is 'forcing' others to be part of your RP. If that's how someone feels about it they shouldn't be RPing. And if someone truly doesn't want to be part of something they have every right to find a way to bow out.
I'm not saying that really at all.

More of if you are making the choice to play the kind of characters that end others' stories (and yes people feel pressured, especially when stuff goes 'execution style') then you should be making that choice to also follow somewhat realistic results.

No one should be immortal, but especially not villains who are making choices that are more likely to end others' stories than not.

They should still take that finality at their own timing, but it should be the ultimate plan for the character otherwise it is indeed powergamey.


In the end, what solves that would be for any execution style murder to be something that should get ooc approval before going through, so as to ensure people don't feel pressured by suspension of disbelief. Sort of how crims arent executed by the courts without ooc permission.

That way players are then able to come up with an alternative (even if that is a shot in the back vs in the forehead).
 

Eva Sur

Gunslinger
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May 5, 2020
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Yes but YOU aren't the one ending others' stories. They are. You may have fired the shot but (hopefully) you aren't the one dictating that the story has ended. They are. So while yes, there are IC consequences for such things, it shouldn't be on the other player and nobody has the right to say things like 'well you ended this character so you have to end too'. That's not fair and THAT is powergamey.

Also I don't like the statement that being a bad guy is 'forcing' others to be part of your RP. If that's how someone feels about it they shouldn't be RPing. And if someone truly doesn't want to be part of something they have every right to find a way to bow out.
Like I said, there's ways to have consequences without permaing. No one should force a perma. But people take consequences seriously on this server in order to keep realism. When there's a disconnect in consequences, it can start to make your story not make sense and makes others not want to take the rp seriously either.

If youre a serial killer and kidnap someone to hurt them, they do not have a way out of that in rp. You cant just say no and walk away. You are choosing to put them into a situation that they probably can't get out of easily and will affect their entire story. It can be a good thing when rped well, but that's why it's so hard to play a bad guy. You need to make sure you're putting other's rp first since they can't just chose not to be a part of it when you kidnap them. I love me a good serial killer and would gladly be a part of that, but not everyone is that way and you are actively impacting their story whether they want to rp with you or not. (Which everyone does when you rp but usually your character can chose who to surround themselves with and have some role in dictating where they go).

Conflict rp impacts peoples stories heavily (as it should- you can't just get kidnapped, tortured, shot, ect and wake up the next day and act like nothing happened), so you need to make sure when youre doing it you respect their story and further it for their own gain, not just yours. When you don't accept the consequences of your actions, it can make the other party feel as if youre only focusing on your own gain from the conflict rp. You should be able to dictate those consequences like I said, but consequences are important in everyones elses story and can further your own too!
 

William Hayes

The Man Himself
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More of if you are making the choice to play the kind of characters that end others' stories (and yes people feel pressured, especially when stuff goes 'execution style') then you should be making that choice to also follow somewhat realistic results.

No one should be immortal, but especially not villains who are making choices that are more likely to end others' stories than not.
The entire point of the thread was to ensure folks know that there should be no pressure to perma your character - doing so is completely your choice and should be done with NO expectation that the person who shot you down will also perma their character as a consequence for it. Ultimately how you end your characters life is COMPLETELY up to you, nobody else. Regardless of the type of character you play.
 

Saffron Mitchell

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The entire point of the thread was to ensure folks know that there should be no pressure to perma your character - doing so is completely your choice and should be done with NO expectation that the person who shot you down will also perma their character as a consequence for it. Ultimately how you end your characters life is COMPLETELY up to you, nobody else. Regardless of the type of character you play.
I don't even mean that they should have to, but that really people should play with that weight of consequence in mind. Sometimes that means making decisions to help make sure that you are respecting the integrity of others' stories, and not just your own. Otherwise, it's a type of NVL to act as if your character can't die, if that makes sense?


I am very strongly advocating for choice in stories here; but cautioning against behaving callously towards the stories of others, with the understanding tha your choices can very severely affect others' choices, whether you mean for them to or not.

For many, because they want to play realistically, if they are faced with a situation where they cannot logic their way out of death, they will often perma whether they want to or not. Hence my suggestions that if you are going to play the villainous character and do not want to perma at any point, that you be taking extreme care in how you affect others stories.
 

Helena Hopwood

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I like seeing everyone's perspective on this ordeal.
I've always said and tried to stick to, my character my story. Until I am satisfied with how much storyline I have received as a character - I may PK them. Normally when I PK my character I try and get it to the point where it hopefully with affect about 5 people's storylines. I remember when I PK'd a character on another server with Gator Claw / Aiden Carmine - it ended up with them seeking revenge. It got both the characters who were heavily impacted to PK as well due to the PK I had on my character. It was an amazing storyline. But no one ever forced us - we chose to do it ourselves.

Now the one thing I think was a good rule from a prior server was about NVFL - if you didn't show value for a character's life by being stupid then you got PK'd. One thing I REALLY REALLY despise are those people who make one lifers. Act trolly or stupid as all can be to get people to kill them. Or when they're captured, they blurt out the most NVL shit I've heard in my entirety of RP and get killed (and then complain on stream that we were the bad RPers but besides the point).
 

Mato Ptecila

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Nov 14, 2019
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I know a lot of people have been mentioning that their characters are used to cope with certain aspects of themselves that they don't feel they can express any other way.

This is concerning on two parts:

On one hand- It makes me sad in an empathetic way. You should be able to express yourself IRL, whether it's crying, emotions, but I also understand how working through situations similar to situations you have experienced in a fictional and more controlled environment can be therapeutic and allow you to express yourself in ways you feel you can't.

However I find if you delve too hard into that aspect, the character becomes less of a character and more of a self insert. I am not saying that the people above who have mentioned using RP to deal with issues are guilty of that, I'm saying that without self awareness and a willingness to pull back and analyze a situation, it can quickly turn into an issue where OOC emotions begin to control IC actions. ESPECIALLY if someone is still acutely affected by a plotline or series of events that toes the line of a situation that has been experienced IRL.

For example, a character dealing with the death of a friend, with rumors of it being self inflicted is going to be significantly harder to play by someone who is freshly dealing with a similar situation IRL.

I am guilty of this myself. When I had gotten out of the military, I was diagnosed with a very very serious level of PTSD. I could not control my emotions, could not control my fight or flight response, and was incredibly violent towards people who were only trying to help. While I was in therapy I created a character who was a veteran of the most recent war in the setting I was playing, who was struggling with PTSD after the fact.

Straight up was NOT prepared to deal with the fallback of playing a character that did exactly what I did to people IRL, and dealing with the wholly negative IC response that he felt. It got to the point that it felt almost as if they were attacking me as a person, rather than the character. Boy that fucking sucked.

However, now that I'm doing exponentially better mentally, emotionally, and physically, it's far easier to play characters dealing with trauma in a way that not only is informative and interesting, but it's not 'Whoa holy shit'. Learned real quick there's certain aspects of realism that should be avoided for the better of everyone involved.

When this comes to character death- it's the same issue. While realistically there have been injuries received by characters on this server that should have killed them- above all this is a game. Certain liberties can be taken, so long as they're roleplayed correctly.

For example. @Milo Reines ' beautiful character Tobias shot Mato in the back with a shotgun. I was weighing the options of having him die from his wounds, to the point I legitimately couldn't decide. Finally on the third day of him down and -out-, I rolled a dice. The dice said he lived. Alright, great!

Now it came to me to figure out how his healing process would go, what long term injuries like that would cause, and the struggles he would have to overcome. Over the course of two months I roleplayed him relearning how to shoot a bow, practicing for hours and deliberately missing targets and showing frustration to signify that. I roleplay that he deals with phantom pain, excruciating head aches, etc due to his eye being taken out. I roleplay that he deals with exponentially painful spasms in his back as the nerves try to reform themselves but never will be able to fully.

So much story can be made not only from a character death, but the process of them healing, either mentally or physically- or both!

The only thing I would caution is... There's only so many times your character can deal with grievous, serious injury before their body just gives out. If Mato was dealt a pretty serious injury, he'd have a much tougher time dealing with it and the healing process than he would have if he wasn't harmed the way he was.

All in all, y'all are beautiful, and I hope y'all have a good morning/day/evening/night!
 
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Conrad Furtaw

Cowpoke
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Nov 29, 2020
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Also I don't like the statement that being a bad guy is 'forcing' others to be part of your RP. If that's how someone feels about it they shouldn't be RPing. And if someone truly doesn't want to be part of something they have every right to find a way to bow out.
Isn't the essence of organic roleplay that like life, you aren't always driving at the wheel? Personally I think the ideal perspective is that RP that you don't expect and don't plan for can happen to you, and that's part of the experience. People should be open to bad things happening to them, this isn't anyone's individual personal stage, it's everyone's stage and we're all part of the show.
 

Vadim Oliynyk

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Nov 10, 2020
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I agree on some points with William on the sense that you should be the one who decides if you are going to PK a character so that you don't regret it afterward.

Though I do have an opinion as well that your actions could lead to consequences and it's just about being treating other RPers fairly and also being treated fairly by them in kind. If you're going to be torturing someone you got to be ready for the possibility that this character might want to go find you and actually kill you. Whether you PK or whatever is up to you but you really need to also take into consideration that others should be allowed to return hostile acts if not harsher.

I won't name anyone but one of my Alts a few months ago I was taken captive into the woods and torture/interrogated for about 2 hours which was fun. Though when I stumbled upon one of the characters involved at a later date they had an extreme reservation about doing anything.

I'm not saying this to target anyone. I'm just saying you should decide if you PK but be aware that some people might want to do things to you (such as a PK) for things you do to them.
 

Wesley Webb

Lover of Bowties
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I agree on some points with William on the sense that you should be the one who decides if you are going to PK a character so that you don't regret it afterward.

Though I do have an opinion as well that your actions could lead to consequences and it's just about being treating other RPers fairly and also being treated fairly by them in kind. If you're going to be torturing someone you got to be ready for the possibility that this character might want to go find you and actually kill you. Whether you PK or whatever is up to you but you really need to also take into consideration that others should be allowed to return hostile acts if not harsher.

I won't name anyone but one of my Alts a few months ago I was taken captive into the woods and torture/interrogated for about 2 hours which was fun. Though when I stumbled upon one of the characters involved at a later date they had an extreme reservation about doing anything.

I'm not saying this to target anyone. I'm just saying you should decide if you PK but be aware that some people might want to do things to you (such as a PK) for things you do to them.
big agree. Actions have IC consequences.
 

Odysseus Hall

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I'll weigh in a little here. I played Red Dog, or Kaawasa to his friends and family. In the immediate aftermath of his death I was certainly sad, regret is the wrong word but there was some tinge of that. What I felt most was excitement. I took a break from playing myself and watched a few streams from our fellow players. I was lucky enough to get to witness the ripples that character's demise brought. I got to enjoy those who hated him being glad he was gone, those who loved him mourn, and those who had some odd respect contend with the loss of a character I tried to make an effigy to the 'wild' part of the Wild West.

I think all characters have that capacity, it's compelling. I'm grateful for all of it. Also I got to attend my own funeral, so that was cool.